Anime lists and rating discussion

[Ausdoerrt]

MOVED FROM THE ANIME RECOMMENDATION THREAD.

As for MAL, I personally like ANN's encyclopedia and rating system more, it's a lot more detailed and better-weighed. And the site doesn't have pop-ups. Plus, now that I've put all the effort in it I'm not likely to move it. It's still publicly available on ANN so there isn't really a problem.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

QUOTE (Ausdoerrt @ Jan 04 2010, 12:55 PM) ^ It was a "preliminary" rating after watching season 1. Since I haven't finished season 2 yet (and don't feel like it yet), the rating isn't final. That's why it's on "seen some" aka "in progress" list. I'm likely to be less stoked about it by the time a finish.

As for MAL, I personally like ANN's encyclopedia and rating system more, it's a lot more detailed and better-weighed. And the site doesn't have pop-ups. Plus, now that I've put all the effort in it I'm not likely to move it. It's still publicly available on ANN so there isn't really a problem.
ANN's system is not better weighted because all the licensed titles are often shift the weight dramatically. Anidb > ANN > MAL. MAL's voting system is often off the charts and unreasonable. People have way too low expectations. For anidb, you could say that some people have too high expectations for some series, but usually its weighted better than most sites since it gives you a better idea of the general otaku community outside of Japan.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Jan 04 2010, 03:22 PM) ANN's system is not better weighted because all the licensed titles are often shift the weight dramatically.
That's what the "most overrated" and "most underrated" categories are for. The licensed titles do have more weight, but that's not the fault of the system, it's only natural because the site it English-language and most people like to see their shows translated, and many people like to do so legally. Also, with the inclusion of CR simulcasts this has evened that out quite a bit.


QUOTE For anidb, you could say that some people have too high expectations for some series, but usually its weighted better than most sites since it gives you a better idea of the general otaku community outside of Japan.

Well, if I were just to compare the top 10 on both sites, aniDB only has maybe 2 titles that deserve the title, and that people would have heard of. On the other hand, that's the case for at least more than half of ANN's top 10. Perhaps aniDB's ratings reflect the fansub-otaku community reasonably well, but I would say it's all of the "otaku community". Neither is ANN, but I like that it reflects the views of non-otaku as well as the otaku who like to go licensed. I like how detailed it is as well: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...tings-anime.php

Finally, as I said before, I like ANN's encyclopedia a lot more, it's more informative and has more intuitive interface. It's also usually more correct than aniDB, and they only post confirmed info.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

QUOTE (Ausdoerrt @ Jan 04 2010, 02:55 PM) Well, if I were just to compare the top 10 on both sites, aniDB only has maybe 2 titles that deserve the title, and that people would have heard of. On the other hand, that's the case for at least more than half of ANN's top 10. Perhaps aniDB's ratings reflect the fansub-otaku community reasonably well, but I would say it's all of the "otaku community". Neither is ANN, but I like that it reflects the views of non-otaku as well as the otaku who like to go licensed. I like how detailed it is as well: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...tings-anime.php

Finally, as I said before, I like ANN's encyclopedia a lot more, it's more informative and has more intuitive interface. It's also usually more correct than aniDB, and they only post confirmed info.
define "deserve"...I see 4, maybe 5, of the top 10 on Anidb's site: Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Eve no Jikan, Nodame Cantabile, and maybe Aria the Origination. Kimi ni Todoke is too early to judge at the moment. All of the titles mentioned except maybe Nodame Cantabile and Kimi ni Todoke are titles that people are likely to have heard of here since they are licensed.

As for ANN, I only see 3 or 4. Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal, Cowboy Bebop, Mushi-shi, and maybe Princess Mononoke. Other than that, the rest are garbage...yeah that's right, I said Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo was garbage. It wasn't bad, but it didn't really stick to me either.

However, I do agree undoubtedly that ANN's information is in general better for information stuff and a better layout. The only thing that's missing from ANN is the sub groups, which is understandable since they are a legal resource site.

 

[JCDRANZER]

MAL and AniDB are great. I use both for different reasons, AniDB is to find who subbed what and to be able to get to the subber's IRC channel, TokyoTosho also serves that purpose as well. Whereas, for MAL is simply for me to update my status on anime viewing, in other words a facebook for my otaku side.

ANN.....sometimes info but I tend to get them quicker at MAL and even more quicker at AniDB.

Hence, ANN ain't so hot for me.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Jan 04 2010, 06:22 PM) define "deserve"...I see 4, maybe 5, of the top 10 on Anidb's site: Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Eve no Jikan, Nodame Cantabile, and maybe Aria the Origination. Kimi ni Todoke is too early to judge at the moment. All of the titles mentioned except maybe Nodame Cantabile and Kimi ni Todoke are titles that people are likely to have heard of here since they are licensed.

As for ANN, I only see 3 or 4. Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal, Cowboy Bebop, Mushi-shi, and maybe Princess Mononoke. Other than that, the rest are garbage...yeah that's right, I said Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo was garbage. It wasn't bad, but it didn't really stick to me either.
"Deserve", of course opinionated, but also more along the lines of "influential, with significant artistic value and high production quality as well as fairly uniform popularity". That's still vague enough, but I can't really come up with anything better atm, and it shows enough my concern with the AniDB system. Their top list is extremely recent-titles heavy, some still ongoing, while ANNs is more evenly spread between newer and older titles (not the least because of the way they weigh the votes). While most of the ANN list will likely withstand the test of time (except for the hype titles), AniDB's won't, because 80% of it IS composed of current hype titles.

Now, to be fully opinionated, here I go. First, there is something extremely wrong with a list that ranks not only Clannad and Geass, but even random stuff like Kimi no Todoke over Tsuyoku Hen. Also, as much as I love Nodame, the series is just not top 10 material, and will probably be forgotten all but completely in 3 years' time. Same goes for Aria, pretty much. Also, Spirited Away is definitely top-10 worthy, even despite my usual not-so-buoyant attitude towards Miyazaki works...

Finally, notice how there's not that much difference between 3-4 and 4-5 in your comparison

For all it's worth, one could call it "about even" in your opinion

Oh, and one thing I like best about the ANN rating system is that it actually puts a word definition to every of the 10 rating numbers, which makes rating stuff and understanding what the rating means a lot easier, because, frankly, everybody's "7" could be completely different otherwise.

 

[JCDRANZER]

MAL's numbered scores do correspond to words and ppl of MAL would know this.

MAL's Rating System: -

10 = Masterpiece
9 = Great
8 = Very Good
7 = Good
6 =Fine
5 = Average
4 = Bad
3 = Very Bad
2 = Horrible
1 = Unwatchable

**Points Auso towards MAL**

 

[Ausdoerrt]

But again, what's your "very good" and what's my "very good"? I like that there's a definition, for example "Awful" is defined as "maybe useful as a torture device" etc (too lazy to type em all out). ANN's system isn't even 10-point based either.

I'm not really trying to argue one is better than other with this one though, I'm just pointing out things that I like about it. The "top 10" argument is more important here though

 

[Megiddo]

Both Top10 are terrible. I use MAL because I can easily add anime to my list by viewing other people's lists. If ANN incorporated such a tool then I'd most likely update my ANN list more.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

^ Well, sorry that no top 10 consists of 10 Key titles. I don't think they made that many to begin with

 

[Megiddo]

QUOTE (Ausdoerrt @ Jan 06 2010, 02:25 PM) ^ Well, sorry that no top 10 consists of 10 Key titles. I don't think they made that many to begin with

You might want to actually check out my list before making that comment: http://myanimelist.net/animelist/Meddigo

 

[Ausdoerrt]

I tried to, but then I saw this in line 1:

.hack something score 9

And stopped there.

Sorry, but titles like Utaware or Air or Honey and clover aren't earth-shaking enough to be in top 10. Also, we're not really arguing YOUR top 10 here, that's just opinions; we were looking at what was actually influential for the industry as a whole. Let's say my top 10 is also different from both MAL's and ANN's but that's no basis to say "the list sucks", and that was the original message of my previous post.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

QUOTE (Ausdoerrt @ Jan 06 2010, 02:24 PM) I tried to, but then I saw this in line 1:

.hack something score 9

And stopped there.
.hack//Sign should be the exception. I don't know about you, but it tried damn hard and it was successful, in my opinion, for a game based adaptation (even though the game came out way after). The series had a solid plot unlike most series that follow the same trend of adaptation, and it ended on a conclusive note if I remember correctly.

EDIT: I don't know about the rest of you, but when I rate anime, I don't just rate the series as an individual, but I also rate them in comparison to other series in the same field. e.g. it's impossible to rate Kenshin series with the ef series. Not only were they produced in different times, but also they're two different genres. However, I can rate Kenshin with say Sword of the Stranger or Afro Samurai, etc... Animation I tend to rate with those that air in the same time, so of course ratings here may be a little bit on the unbalanced end....

 

[Megiddo]

.hack//GIFT is a gag comedy extra where all the characters are super poorly-animated-SD and act completely different from how they are normally. It's farking hilarious for any .hack fan. Clip here and here.

And I made no notion to say that my personal top10 is better than anyone else's, I only showed you my list to show that I don't rate Key/KyoAni stuff the highest, as you had snidely said.

EDIT: And really, I have 45 anime rated at '9', which is what Utaware and Air TV were rated by me. That's pretty much a top50.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

I didn't really want to argue at our top 10, but if you will. You don't even have a "top 10" in your list. You rate 3 shows as "10", one of which is on all the top10 aggregate lists. You also voted Clannad for Best 2009 and have Air in your avatar, so I sort of have the right to make fun of you from a standpoint of a non-key non-romance fan. No offense.

QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Jan 06 2010, 03:31 PM) .hack//Sign should be the exception. I don't know about you, but it tried damn hard and it was successful, in my opinion, for a game based adaptation (even though the game came out way after). The series had a solid plot unlike most series that follow the same trend of adaptation, and it ended on a conclusive note if I remember correctly.

EDIT: I don't know about the rest of you, but when I rate anime, I don't just rate the series as an individual, but I also rate them in comparison to other series in the same field. e.g. it's impossible to rate Kenshin series with the ef series. Not only were they produced in different times, but also they're two different genres. However, I can rate Kenshin with say Sword of the Stranger or Afro Samurai, etc... Animation I tend to rate with those that air in the same time, so of course ratings here may be a little bit on the unbalanced end....
I thought hack/sign tried TOO hard and was so damn boring I never bothered to finish. I only bothered with the .hack series again once, which was that special 3D movie, but the CGI was so horrible and the story was so poorly written that I ditched the series alltogether. It's a cool concept but the execution sucked.

As for your EDIT, I think that defeats a purpose of a general anime list. It'd also probably result in overrating most series on the list while underrating the ones that should really get the top rankings.. For example, School Rumble is a great school comedy, one of the best out there, probably deserves a 9 or a 10 as a school comedy. Then, let's say we have Oshii's Sky Crawlers. It's a very good movie, but is a bit too opaque and heavy and overall isn't as good as other Oshii movies so maybe it gets an 8 here.

Now question: does that make School Rumble an overall better, more artistically valuable and more significant work than Sky Crawlers?

Also, your approach enters yet another rating problem, that is choosing the appropriate pool for comparison. For example, I can't but disagree with your comparison of Kenshin OVA to Afro Samurai or SoTS, because it's not a cheesy action title but a historical drama.

That's why I try to rate my stuff on a general basis, viewing an anime as an aggregate of certain qualities and then comparing it to all others. I also sometimes like to compare anime to live-action movies if applicable.

 

[wedora]

Everybody's different, and everybody rates things differently. I don't see whats so hard about it.

I find MAL's list to be the most user-friendly and convenient of the bunch, so I use it. Is that a good enough answer for this debate, or do I need to write a thesis like everyone else?

 

[JCDRANZER]

QUOTE (wedora @ Jan 06 2010, 11:16 PM) Everybody's different, and everybody rates things differently. I don't see whats so hard about it.

I find MAL's list to be the most user-friendly and convenient of the bunch, so I use it. Is that a good enough answer for this debate, or do I need to write a thesis like everyone else?
My point exactly and I didn't write a thesis.....its expected of Kit though.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

QUOTE (Ausdoerrt @ Jan 06 2010, 03:41 PM) As for your EDIT, I think that defeats a purpose of a general anime list. It'd also probably result in overrating most series on the list while underrating the ones that should really get the top rankings.. For example, School Rumble is a great school comedy, one of the best out there, probably deserves a 9 or a 10 as a school comedy. Then, let's say we have Oshii's Sky Crawlers. It's a very good movie, but is a bit too opaque and heavy and overall isn't as good as other Oshii movies so maybe it gets an 8 here.

Now question: does that make School Rumble an overall better, more artistically valuable and more significant work than Sky Crawlers?

Also, your approach enters yet another rating problem, that is choosing the appropriate pool for comparison. For example, I can't but disagree with your comparison of Kenshin OVA to Afro Samurai or SoTS, because it's not a cheesy action title but a historical drama.

That's why I try to rate my stuff on a general basis, viewing an anime as an aggregate of certain qualities and then comparing it to all others. I also sometimes like to compare anime to live-action movies if applicable.
Not really.... although not on my list, I would definitely give School Rumble an 8 or 9. Probably not a 10 since I'm sure I've seen better comedies out there, especially given how School Rumble ended

Sky Crawlers on the other hand, I think I was going to give it a 6 or 7. I'm sorry, but it was bad...really bad. Good concept, but not so great execution as I was hoping for.

Okay, so maybe Afro Samurai was a bad choice, but I definitely felt Sword of the Stranger was a more valid comparison, but note that I also rate the show on an individual scale (hence "not only"). I basically have a special rating system where I would rate the series individually, rate the series in comparison, and then judge based on that criteria.

As for comparisons outside anime, I would tend to avoid comparing to live actions since it's not really a fair comparison. For one side, you only hear voices of seiyuus and custom character designs whereas the other side has a limitation of selectively choosing appropriate actors/actresses for the roles as well as costume/prop design. Not really a fair comparison. A better way to compare is if the series is adapted from a game, light novel, visual novel, or manga, see how well it follows it. Regardless of how it ends (unless its a filler like Kampfer), decent ratings should be given based on how closely it followed the original source material because that's as good as you're going to get it. Of course this doesn't always apply to comedy series like Seitokai no Ichizon and to some extent Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. The only other exception I'm aware of at this point is Fullmetal Alchemist 2003.


QUOTE
I find MAL's list to be the most user-friendly and convenient of the bunch, so I use it. Is that a good enough answer for this debate, or do I need to write a thesis like everyone else?

You don't need to since it's not in the Thoughtful Section. Though sharing your thoughts may inspire more discussion.


QUOTE (JCDRANZER @ Jan 06 2010, 04:21 PM)QUOTE (wedora @ Jan 06 2010, 11:16 PM) Everybody's different, and everybody rates things differently.  I don't see whats so hard about it. 

I find MAL's list to be the most user-friendly and convenient of the bunch, so I use it.  Is that a good enough answer for this debate, or do I need to write a thesis like everyone else? 
My point exactly and I didn't write a thesis.....its expected of Kit though.

I like arguing. Gives a more lively feeling around here.

 

[Megiddo]

QUOTE (Ausdoerrt @ Jan 06 2010, 04:41 PM) I didn't really want to argue at our top 10, but if you will. You don't even have a "top 10" in your list. You rate 3 shows as "10", one of which is on all the top10 aggregate lists. You also voted Clannad for Best 2009 and have Air in your avatar, so I sort of have the right to make fun of you from a standpoint of a non-key non-romance fan. No offense.
I thought we were arguing the merit of having our list at ANN vs AniDB vs MAL? If you just want my top10, I posted one on ANN last year, so here it is (as of Feb 17 2009):
1. Neon Genesis Evangelion - I know that many think this show is overrated and doesn't deserve near the acclaim that it receives, but it honestly was the anime that hooked me. The intricate plot and the way the characters developed really fascinated me. The ending didn't exactly sit well with me, but I also love End of Evangelion for the different look.

2. Honey and Clover - This series hit me right at an interesting point. I had graduated from high school and was about to make my own journey to the university, similar to that which Takemoto experiences. The characters are all excellent and the comedy is top notch. Now having re-watched the series in college, I gain even more appreciation for the bit of insight it contains about life.

3. Haibane Renmei - I love all of ABe's creations, but this is definitely what I consider his best work. The atmosphere of this world that is completely enclosed whose winged inhabitants just try to live life as they can is certainly worth watching alone. However, the situations which the Charcoal Feathers find themselves in and the symbolism contained therein makes this show a true treasure.

4. The Full Metal Panic trilogy - All three seasons of Full Metal Panic can be earnestly enjoyed. There's always something for the comedy fan and the action fan, and even sometimes something for the romance fan. Sousuke's hilarious antics never seem to get old, and the much darker Second Raid provides great contrast to the light hearted Fumoffu.

5. Hunter X Hunter + OVAs - This is probably the one anime that is hard to explain why I've rated it so highly. It's my favorite shounen mostly due to the characters (Gon, Leorio, Killiua, Kurapica, and Hisoka are all great characters), but also the somewhat gruesome content that it contains. Also, it being only around 80 episodes in length make it one of the short shounen series, which I consider a plus, due to the near-complete absence of filler.

6. Air TV - This was my first experience with KyoAni, and, having played the Kanon game earlier, I knew that I would be in for a real treat. It certainly was. The Summer Arc (the 2nd) is probably my favorite story arc ever in a Key game, as it can elicit so many emotions at the same time when watching. The 3rd Arc is also very emotional and extremely well done. The symbolic nature of the series also makes me enjoy it so much more upon re-watching it.

7. Serial Experiments Lain - "And you don't even understand", the first line of "Duvet" the opening theme of Lain explains pretty much how I felt the first time when I watched Lain. Luckily, I bought the series and have been able to watch many times since then. Each time I view it I seem to develop different theories and notice things that I had not noticed before. Such is a sign of a well done anime.

8. One Piece - I said before that I like short shounens, and this one most certainly is not. However, despite having seen over 340 episodes of it, I'm still not tired of it. I still want more. Oda's characters are so goofy and entertaining, particularly when they interact with each other, but the way that characters from 100s of episodes back keep re-appearing makes it seem like the world of One Piece really is interconnected. Oda makes sure that not a single character is wasted.

9. Major - What's this? A sports anime? That's not Hikaru no Go? Indeed, I love Major. I'm speaking particularly about the first season which deals with the growth of a boy and his determination to become a good baseball player, just like his father. Major scores (hah, pun) not only on the baseball diamond, but also off of it. The dynamic characters of Toshiya, Shimizu, and Komori, along with Goro, particularly shine. As I was watching I just couldn't help myself but cheer on Goro and the rest of the Mifune Dolphins.

10. Kaiba - Ahhh Kaiba. It features certainly one of the most unique styles of artwork that I have ever seen. One might even get the wrong idea that the show is intended for children because of the very simple character designs, but that person would be very, very wrong. Kaiba is the most mature anime that came out in '08. Yes, that means even more mature than Mnesomyne (or however it is spelled). The idea of someone's memories being bought, along with their body, to give the rich the equivalent of immortality is certainly intriguing, and the show will simply not disappoint seinen anime fans.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

QUOTE As for comparisons outside anime, I would tend to avoid comparing to live actions since it's not really a fair comparison. For one side, you only hear voices of seiyuus and custom character designs whereas the other side has a limitation of selectively choosing appropriate actors/actresses for the roles as well as costume/prop design. Not really a fair comparison.

But people (critics and otherwise) treat things like Pixar or Dreamworks movies together with live-action films. And the guy who "played" Gollum in LoTR was even nominated for best supporting actor Oscar (didn't win tho

). What makes anime so "special"? And also, while what you say about "lack of limitation" in anime is entirely true, it just so happens that very few anime works manage to use that to their advantage and actually be in the same tier as the live-action movies, DESPITE the advantage! So it's all fair (although I usually only bother if the anime work can hope to withstand the comparison.


QUOTE A better way to compare is if the series is adapted from a game, light novel, visual novel, or manga, see how well it follows it. Regardless of how it ends (unless its a filler like Kampfer), decent ratings should be given based on how closely it followed the original source material because that's as good as you're going to get it.

I'd send you to rewatch that SZS episode where they discussed exactly that, but I forget which ep of season 2 that is. Some of the greatest films (live-action) would be deemed horrible if we rate them on how well they adapt the "original material", even if they are as good as or heaps better than the book. On the other hand, back to the SZS statement, if the adaptation is crappy because the source material is crappy, "I followed the original exactly" is a crappy excuse. Make it better! That's what directors are for.


QUOTE You don't need to since it's not in the Thoughtful Section.

But I could MOVE it to the Thoughtful section

Sorry, but rating School Rumble overall over Sky Crawlers is just no. The movie had a distinct and significant statement and a strong philosophical discussion, even if it wasn't presented all that well, while School Rumble is just giggles. It's like saying that American Pie is better that The Wrestler.


QUOTE Megiddo on top 10 and stuff

But but... YOU started it by saying all lists suck, thereby making it necessary to see where you were coming from and why.

Hence the shift in that part of discussion

I can confidently say that I would not have a single anime off your list on MY top 10, except maybe Haibane Renmei, but I need to rewatch it to even rate it, it's been too long. In terms of a less opinionated analysis of influence on the industry and artistic value, I'd say Eva because of the popularity (even if I'd personally rate it no higher than an 8, probably lower for poor direction and pacing), and maybe Kaiba for art (although there's plenty of more artistically "special" animes out there).